MHSAA Reclassification Numbers

[Rebel Bert]

3 hours ago, David said:

I’m opposed to reclassifying, mainly for competitive reasons. In 7A, districts will move to 6 teams each, which means that teams will play 5district games instead of the current 7.  That leaves 5 out of district games to fill, and those who want easy wins will only play down to pas their records. I say the state should require 7A teams to play at least two 7A teams early in the year, possibly on a rotation in games that count on the district record. 

7A vs 7A/6A schools

6A vs 7A/5A schools

and continuing downward

except for County schools when you get to 1A--3A.

[Guntriple]

Yes they are. The gap from Tupelo to Center Hill was the same as the gap from Center Hill to Bay springs.

[Bender20]

7 hours ago, David said:

I’m opposed to reclassifying, mainly for competitive reasons. In 7A, districts will move to 6 teams each, which means that teams will play 5district games instead of the current 7.  That leaves 5 out of district games to fill, and those who want easy wins will only play down to pas their records. I say the state should require 7A teams to play at least two 7A teams early in the year, possibly on a rotation in games that count on the district record. 

Who cares who they play?  That's what the playoffs be for.  

[David]

4 hours ago, Rebel Bert said:

7A vs 7A/6A schools

6A vs 7A/5A schools

and continuing downward

except for County schools when you get to 1A--3A.

Are you saying that we should require those classes to only play other schools in their class or one step down? I like that idea to keep the competition more even. 

[David]

11 minutes ago, Bender20 said:

Who cares who they play?  That's what the playoffs be for.  

Just more about the overall level of play. If 7A teams are playing down three levels, our players, especially those being recruited won’t get good competition on the field, and eventually they won’t improve. Us fans want good competition throughout the year, not just in the playoffs. I’d love to see my O.S. Greyhounds play a tough schedule even if we lose a couple of games early. One idea is to limit games to teams only one class below. Maybe two classes below would be possible. 

[Rebel Bert]

40 minutes ago, David said:

Just more about the overall level of play. If 7A teams are playing down three levels, our players, especially those being recruited won’t get good competition on the field, and eventually they won’t improve. Us fans want good competition throughout the year, not just in the playoffs. I’d love to see my O.S. Greyhounds play a tough schedule even if we lose a couple of games early. One idea is to limit games to teams only one class below. Maybe two classes below would be possible. 

2 classes down and 2 classes up, play your County schools.

[David]

1 hour ago, Rebel Bert said:

2 classes down and 2 classes up, play your County schools.

Agree. 

[HammerDown74]

When this idea came about, Lance Mancuso said he’s never had a game where he or his kids said “if they wouldn’t have had 400 more kids than us, we’d won” and I agree. It’s not about competition, it’s about money. 

[MSSportsGuy]

15 hours ago, Arashatora said:

So Tupelo is essentially a 5a school larger than center hill

I agree the gap is a large one and can see why people would want to change it. But rather than add another class, just make the number of 6A teams be 24 rather than 32 and the same with 5A. Of course, I posted yesterday that Collierville is the largest school in TN with 2800 or so students and their smallest 6A school has 1500 or so. That's a huge gap as well but maybe TN schools feel the same way. 

 

This is just a money grab being disguised as something to help the kids and schools. 

[Arashatora]

13 minutes ago, MSSportsGuy said:

I agree the gap is a large one and can see why people would want to change it. But rather than add another class, just make the number of 6A teams be 24 rather than 32 and the same with 5A. Of course, I posted yesterday that Collierville is the largest school in TN with 2800 or so students and their smallest 6A school has 1500 or so. That's a huge gap as well but maybe TN schools feel the same way. 

 

This is just a money grab being disguised as something to help the kids and schools. 

After thinking about it, I'd think that the 33% difference between say the biggest and smallest 4a schools might be harder to overcome than a 46% difference in the 6a space.

 

The number of athletes probably does not jump substantially when dealing with schools 1900-1100 sized, versus say schools 400-200 sized. Also, a bunch of the larger schools are moving kids in for sports anyway, ie. Oxford.

[AdamHood]

5 minutes ago, Arashatora said:

After thinking about it, I'd think that the 33% difference between say the biggest and smallest 4a schools might be harder to overcome than a 46% difference in the 6a space.

 

The number of athletes probably does not jump substantially when dealing with schools 1900-1100 sized, versus say schools 400-200 sized. Also, a bunch of the larger schools are moving kids in for sports anyway, ie. Oxford.

3A and 4A is where the gap has to close. The difference is pretty big there.

[coastfootballfanman]

1 hour ago, HammerDown74 said:

When this idea came about, Lance Mancuso said he’s never had a game where he or his kids said “if they wouldn’t have had 400 more kids than us, we’d won” and I agree. It’s not about competition, it’s about money. 

Well to be transparent, Lance Mancuso has had a very deep talent pool the past 10+ years and has not had to play teams with 400 more kids than his team in region or playoff play either. Little easier to have that opinion from his view point. Although I do agree with you it is a lot more about money than competition. 

[MSSportsGuy]

7 minutes ago, coastfootballfanman said:

Well to be transparent, Lance Mancuso has had a very deep talent pool the past 10+ years and has not had to play teams with 400 more kids than his team in region or playoff play either. Little easier to have that opinion from his view point. Although I do agree with you it is a lot more about money than competition. 

As much as I have railed against the 7A addition, I understand why coaches would be frustrated when there is a significant and persistent size gap. I just think there are several solutions to this the association could do rather than add another class, which is why I think it's just money above all.

 

This is clearly a topic that inspires a lot of discussion and opinions. As I state with most of my posts, my thoughts are my own and carry no weight at all, plus with my kids no longer in high school I truly have no stake in the game. 

[AdamHood]

4 minutes ago, MSSportsGuy said:

As much as I have railed against the 7A addition, I understand why coaches would be frustrated when there is a significant and persistent size gap. I just think there are several solutions to this the association could do rather than add another class, which is why I think it's just money above all.

 

This is clearly a topic that inspires a lot of discussion and opinions. As I state with most of my posts, my thoughts are my own and carry no weight at all, plus with my kids no longer in high school I truly have no stake in the game. 

I know Alabama private schools count only boys for football, but count all students for rest of sports.  That would really change things up I think.

[coastfootballfanman]

1 minute ago, MSSportsGuy said:

As much as I have railed against the 7A addition, I understand why coaches would be frustrated when there is a significant and persistent size gap. I just think there are several solutions to this the association could do rather than add another class, which is why I think it's just money above all.

 

This is clearly a topic that inspires a lot of discussion and opinions. As I state with most of my posts, my thoughts are my own and carry no weight at all, plus with my kids no longer in high school I truly have no stake in the game. 

I absolutely understand the point a lot of coaches have with it. You are playing vitally important games with teams that in some cases have almost 700 more kids than you do. That is a hard thing to accept when you think "What if I had 700 extra kids? How many players could I get out?" In region 4-6A, the gap between Pascagoula (lowest enrollment) and Ocean Springs (highest enrollment) is about 750 kids almost I believe. That would basically be the difference of combining Gautier and Pascagoula together again. I do agree with your points though. There are other alternatives to solve this problem than just going to 7 classifications. 

[Arashatora]

5 minutes ago, AdamHood said:

I know Alabama private schools count only boys for football, but count all students for rest of sports.  That would really change things up I think.

Mississippi private schools do as well

[Arashatora]

28 minutes ago, AdamHood said:

3A and 4A is where the gap has to close. The difference is pretty big there.

Competitive difference or number difference?

 

Statistically the largest 4a is 33% bigger than the smallest and the largest 3a is 39% bigger than the smallest. That gap isn't close to the 47% difference between Tupelo and Center Hill.

[Mack]

17 minutes ago, coastfootballfanman said:

I absolutely understand the point a lot of coaches have with it. You are playing vitally important games with teams that in some cases have almost 700 more kids than you do. That is a hard thing to accept when you think "What if I had 700 extra kids? How many players could I get out?" In region 4-6A, the gap between Pascagoula (lowest enrollment) and Ocean Springs (highest enrollment) is about 750 kids almost I believe. That would basically be the difference of combining Gautier and Pascagoula together again. I do agree with your points though. There are other alternatives to solve this problem than just going to 7 classifications. 

I don't think it is a problem that needs to be solved.  Regardless of how you split them there will be a largest school in a classification and a smallest school in a classification.  On a percentage basis you will be able to find large disparities in the new 6A and 5A as well.  If a coach is actually asking the question "What if I had X amount of extra kids?" then I am sure that rubs off on their players as well.

[MSSportsGuy]

18 minutes ago, Mack said:

I don't think it is a problem that needs to be solved.  Regardless of how you split them there will be a largest school in a classification and a smallest school in a classification.  On a percentage basis you will be able to find large disparities in the new 6A and 5A as well.  If a coach is actually asking the question "What if I had X amount of extra kids?" then I am sure that rubs off on their players as well.

I also agree there will always be a gap of some sort and I'd say the gap is probably overplayed to some extend. Desoto Central was the 2nd largest school in the state behind Tupelo and I don't think their football program could compete with many schools that are smaller than they are largely due to culture. Having a large number of students doesn't always equal having a larger number of athletes at the disposal of a program. 

[coastfootballfanman]

2 minutes ago, MSSportsGuy said:

I also agree there will always be a gap of some sort and I'd say the gap is probably overplayed to some extend. Desoto Central was the 2nd largest school in the state behind Tupelo and I don't think their football program could compete with many schools that are smaller than they are largely due to culture. Having a large number of students doesn't always equal having a larger number of athletes at the disposal of a program. 

To me, it is more about athletes NOT playing. I have a hard time believing a school with 700+ more students does not have another 20 or so young men that would be a great addition to the program and help turn the corner but do not play for a variety of reasons. A coach with a great culture is a driving force in numbers and athletes coming out. Look at what Pennock is doing at OS. Those kids are believing in him and that is why parents are moving their kids there and their numbers are through the roof with athletes coming out to play and that has helped lead them to the dominance they have seen over the past two seasons. OS was a middle of the road program before he got there. I just think it is silly to pretend having an extra 6-700 kids is not an advantage in terms of having athletes at your disposal.

The top 5 teams in terms of enrollment from last count were:

 

Tupelo (currently 8-0)

Desoto Central (currently 5-3)

Ocean Springs (currently 7-0)

Gulfport (currently 7-1. only loss was to undefeated Picayune)

Southaven (currently 7-0)

 

So in my opinion, there is some correlation there. Numbers are not the be all, end all. I agree with that because you have the Biloxi's of the world that have a great population but traditionally just do not perform in football, but there is definitely something to be said about having more athletes at your disposal.

[Mack]

7 minutes ago, coastfootballfanman said:

To me, it is more about athletes NOT playing. I have a hard time believing a school with 700+ more students does not have another 20 or so young men that would be a great addition to the program and help turn the corner but do not play for a variety of reasons. A coach with a great culture is a driving force in numbers and athletes coming out. Look at what Pennock is doing at OS. Those kids are believing in him and that is why parents are moving their kids there and their numbers are through the roof with athletes coming out to play and that has helped lead them to the dominance they have seen over the past two seasons. OS was a middle of the road program before he got there. I just think it is silly to pretend having an extra 6-700 kids is not an advantage in terms of having athletes at your disposal.

The top 5 teams in terms of enrollment from last count were:

 

Tupelo (currently 8-0)

Desoto Central (currently 5-3)

Ocean Springs (currently 7-0)

Gulfport (currently 7-1. only loss was to undefeated Picayune)

Southaven (currently 7-0)

 

So in my opinion, there is some correlation there. Numbers are not the be all, end all. I agree with that because you have the Biloxi's of the world that have a great population but traditionally just do not perform in football, but there is definitely something to be said about having more athletes at your disposal.

To an extent there is some correlation, but then why don't those extra numbers matter in basketball and baseball too?  My point would be that the number of students (with schools in same classification) is not the biggest reason for success or failure.  In fact, I am not sure I would list it all that high at all.  Nothing against OS because it is a phenomenal school, but those numbers haven't helped out too much in basketball and other than the past few years, the larger numbers haven't had much impact on football.  There is obviously a whole lot more that goes into success than numbers, and those numbers aren't the key factor.

 

The five teams listed:

 

Tupelo - State champs 92'

Desoto Central - made playoffs four times since opening in 2003

Ocean Springs - 2-9 playoff record since 2010

Gulfport - 2-13 playoff record since 2003

Southaven - 2-8 playoff record since 2003

 

Now, to be fair, maybe those schools weren't all among the largest in all of those years, but they were still big schools during all those years and were still, for the most part, among the largest in their respective classifications.  Those numbers haven't produced much playoff success, other than Tupelo.

[coastfootballfanman]

7 minutes ago, Mack said:

To an extent there is some correlation, but then why don't those extra numbers matter in basketball and baseball too?  My point would be that the number of students (with schools in same classification) is not the biggest reason for success or failure.  In fact, I am not sure I would list it all that high at all.  Nothing against OS because it is a phenomenal school, but those numbers haven't helped out too much in basketball and other than the past few years, the larger numbers haven't had much impact on football.  There is obviously a whole lot more that goes into success than numbers, and those numbers aren't the key factor.

 

The five teams listed:

 

Tupelo - State champs 92'

Desoto Central - made playoffs four times since opening in 2003

Ocean Springs - 2-9 playoff record since 2010

Gulfport - 2-13 playoff record since 2003

Southaven - 2-8 playoff record since 2003

 

Now, to be fair, maybe those schools weren't all among the largest in all of those years, but they were still big schools during all those years and were still, for the most part, among the largest in their respective classifications.  Those numbers haven't produced much playoff success, other than Tupelo.

I agree with you 100%. To me, culture and coach make a big difference. Especially in regards to utilizing those numbers for success. 

[Rebel Bert]

15 hours ago, David said:

Are you saying that we should require those classes to only play other schools in their class or one step down? I like that idea to keep the competition more even. 

Yes

[Rebel Bert]

A good coach will get those extra 20 players to come our for football. A good coach will get a good schedule for his talent to improve. 

[ccbulldog]

7 classes in a state as small as Mississippi is ridiculous. All a championship really means is your better than 23 other teams. Will make it much harder to know who the best team in the State is. What if both the 7A champ and 6A champ finish undefeated but can't play each other. It's just getting us closer to a trophy for everyone.