pancho Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 I agree with that but he doesn't force us. That is the point I was trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 5, 2021 Share Posted September 5, 2021 He actually does force us in a way. We cannot resist his calling. He doesn’t call everyone, and the ones that he does will never resist that call. He is sovereign over all things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSUBulldog2010 Posted September 6, 2021 Author Share Posted September 6, 2021 23 hours ago, pancho said: to a degree? He doesn't make us choose him at all but he does say that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Most of us are mentally capable of making our own decisions but it often takes time. One has to realize that they need Jesus to fully see what God has in store for that person's life. Yes to a degree b/c the limits of both the mental and physical that I spoke of aren't all there is to life by default if you believe the teachings of Jesus. There's freedom to be had outside the current limitations of mankind if you believe what you report to believe. So once more yes, to a degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSUBulldog2010 Posted September 6, 2021 Author Share Posted September 6, 2021 20 hours ago, Chunky6617 said: He actually does force us in a way. We cannot resist his calling. He doesn’t call everyone, and the ones that he does will never resist that call. He is sovereign over all things. Perfect. So if he doesn't call me then I'm not to blame as I can't be said to refuse that which hasn't been offered in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 2 hours ago, MSUBulldog2010 said: Perfect. So if he doesn't call me then I'm not to blame as I can't be said to refuse that which hasn't been offered in the first place. Not exactly. Everyone is to blame for their actions. We aren’t condemned based on whether or not we are called. We are condemned by our sin. And everyone is offered salvation, however only those who are called will achieve it. Those who are not called, will reject it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSUBulldog2010 Posted September 6, 2021 Author Share Posted September 6, 2021 26 minutes ago, Chunky6617 said: Not exactly. Everyone is to blame for their actions. We aren’t condemned based on whether or not we are called. We are condemned by our sin. And everyone is offered salvation, however only those who are called will achieve it. Those who are not called, will reject it. So only those who are called are offered salvation but everyone even those those who aren't called are offered salvation at the same time? Hmm... I'm going to let you think that one over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 22 minutes ago, MSUBulldog2010 said: So only those who are called are offered salvation but everyone even those those who aren't called are offered salvation at the same time? Hmm... I'm going to let you think that one over again. No…. All are offered. Everyone. Only those who are called will repent and come to faith. Those who are not called will not repent. The offer is universal however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSUBulldog2010 Posted September 6, 2021 Author Share Posted September 6, 2021 14 minutes ago, Chunky6617 said: No…. All are offered. Everyone. Only those who are called will repent and come to faith. Those who are not called will not repent. The offer is universal however. Can you differentiate in being offered compared to being called and if so, please share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pancho Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 Sound like bulldog2010 dont' wanna witness heaven. Is that it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 55 minutes ago, MSUBulldog2010 said: Can you differentiate in being offered compared to being called and if so, please share. Everyone is offered salvation, but not all are called TO salvation. Those who are called to salvation cannot resist the call. They were chosen by God for salvation before the world was ever created. They will be saved, none of them will be lost. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:30, ESV) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 It’s known as God’s effectual calling, where he calls believers to himself. It’s not the same as the call to repentance, or the call to keep his commandments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaisbandkid Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 On 9/5/2021 at 2:02 PM, Chunky6617 said: That’s not accurate actually. Nowhere does the Bible say we are free to choose Jesus. It actually says that due to us being dead in our trespasses and sins, that none of us will come to Christ apart from him drawing us to him first. The only way we can even come to faith in Christ is for God to first grant us that faith. We have a human will, but it’s not a free will. We are in bondage to sin. When it comes to anything of spiritual significance, we will always choose the wrong thing and will never choose God. Those who come to faith in Christ are those whom God in his mercy chose for himself before the foundation of the world. Yes but Jesus has given everyone that choice therefore everyone has the choice to choose him. Sure the choice has to be presented first in a sense, but the choice has always been there since the cross. God wanted everyone to be with him, but he also wanted people to be able to choose him so he can be glorified more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, msaisbandkid said: Yes but Jesus has given everyone that choice therefore everyone has the choice to choose him. Sure the choice has to be presented first in a sense, but the choice has always been there since the cross. God wanted everyone to be with him, but he also wanted people to be able to choose him so he can be glorified more. That’s something that we kind of told ourselves and convinced ourselves of along the way somewhere. But that’s not what scripture says. Apart from God softening our heart of stone, we will always choose to reject God. It all starts and ends with God. If a person comes to faith in Christ, it’s because God granted them that faith. It’s not because of some good will choice that they made on their own. Christians are not called “choosers of God”. They are called “chosen by God”. Edited September 6, 2021 by Chunky6617 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaisbandkid Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Chunky6617 said: That’s something that we kind of told ourselves and convinced ourselves of along the way somewhere. But that’s not what scripture says. Apart from God softening our heart of stone, we will always choose to reject God. It all starts and ends with God. If a person comes to faith in Christ, it’s because God granted them that faith. It’s not because of some good will choice that they made on their own. Christians are not called “choosers of God”. They are called “chosen by God”. Fair and I do need to clarify myself. We need to accept the faith in Christ, and that requires choice. Honestly I don't know how it works but I think that God has made it to where predestination and free will somehow coexists because it isn't strictly one way or another. It is beyond human comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSUBulldog2010 Posted September 7, 2021 Author Share Posted September 7, 2021 5 hours ago, Chunky6617 said: No…. All are offered. Everyone. Only those who are called will repent and come to faith. Those who are not called will not repent. The offer is universal however. And you're backing the called vs offered theory up as being two separate items backed by what scripture passage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 1 hour ago, msaisbandkid said: Fair and I do need to clarify myself. We need to accept the faith in Christ, and that requires choice. Honestly I don't know how it works but I think that God has made it to where predestination and free will somehow coexists because it isn't strictly one way or another. It is beyond human comprehension. Free will is another myth that we convinced ourselves that we have, but that also is not a biblical concept. It took me a while to understand that too. We have a human will, but our will is not free. It’s in bondage to sin. We actually can’t choose God, because we are dead spiritually. We are dead in our trespasses and sin. What can a dead person do? Nothing. Dead people can’t do anything. According to the Bible, are none who do good, and none who seek God. It takes God giving us new life, and drawing us to him. No one can come to Christ, unless the father first draws him. When we put our faith in Christ, it’s because God determined that we would do so before we were ever born. Had God not chosen us to be his, we would never have come to faith. It’s all of God, and to him be the glory alone . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSUBulldog2010 Posted September 7, 2021 Author Share Posted September 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Chunky6617 said: Free will is another myth that we convinced ourselves that we have, but that also is not a biblical concept. It took me a while to understand that too. We have a human will, but our will is not free. It’s in bondage to sin. We actually can’t choose God, because we are dead spiritually. We are dead in our trespasses and sin. What can a dead person do? Nothing. Dead people can’t do anything. According to the Bible, are none who do good, and none who seek God. It takes God giving us new life, and drawing us to him. No one can come to Christ, unless the father first draws him. When we put our faith in Christ, it’s because God determined that we would do so before we were ever born. Had God not chosen us to be his, we would never have come to faith. It’s all of God, and to him be the glory alone . You're opinion is intriguing. I'm betting however that there exist billions who have an opinion that differs from yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, MSUBulldog2010 said: And you're backing the called vs offered theory up as being two separate items backed by what scripture passage? It’s not a theory. An offering and a calling are not the same thing. As for a scripture passage, I quoted one in Romans. Those whom he foreknew, he predestined. Those whom he predestined, he called. Those whom he called, he justified. Those whom he justified, he glorified. This is the process in which a person becomes a Christian. It was determined before they were ever born. Not everyone is called to faith. If they were, they would be justified and saved. Edited September 7, 2021 by Chunky6617 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 4 minutes ago, MSUBulldog2010 said: You're opinion is intriguing. I'm betting however that there exist billions who have an opinion that differs from yours. Most definitely there are. Free will is something many people have made an idol. I have no problem accepting that I have no free will. I believe God is sovereign over all things, and nothing happens that he doesn’t decree or allow to happen. The only thing that I cannot explain is the relationship between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. God is sovereign over ALL things, but yet at the same time man is responsible for his actions. That’s something that cannot really he explained Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaisbandkid Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Chunky6617 said: Free will is another myth that we convinced ourselves that we have, but that also is not a biblical concept. It took me a while to understand that too. We have a human will, but our will is not free. It’s in bondage to sin. We actually can’t choose God, because we are dead spiritually. We are dead in our trespasses and sin. What can a dead person do? Nothing. Dead people can’t do anything. According to the Bible, are none who do good, and none who seek God. It takes God giving us new life, and drawing us to him. No one can come to Christ, unless the father first draws him. When we put our faith in Christ, it’s because God determined that we would do so before we were ever born. Had God not chosen us to be his, we would never have come to faith. It’s all of God, and to him be the glory alone . You chose to believe solely predestination. How ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaisbandkid Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 You forget that every step in a spiritual walk with God requires a choice. Are you going to choose to follow God or are you going to choose to sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 35 minutes ago, msaisbandkid said: You chose to believe solely predestination. How ironic. Why would anybody not believe in predestination? It’s scriptural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 33 minutes ago, msaisbandkid said: You forget that every step in a spiritual walk with God requires a choice. Are you going to choose to follow God or are you going to choose to sin? That may the case for someone who is already Christian. Those who are not believers do not have a spiritual walk with God. They are haters of God, as I once was too. And apart from God granting me faith, I would still be a hater of God, dead in my sin. We all choose to sin. The only difference between a believers sin and an un-believers sin is that the believers sin has been forgiven. And if he is truly a believer, he will sin less and less, and produce fruit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSUBulldog2010 Posted September 7, 2021 Author Share Posted September 7, 2021 13 hours ago, Chunky6617 said: It’s not a theory. An offering and a calling are not the same thing. As for a scripture passage, I quoted one in Romans. Those whom he foreknew, he predestined. Those whom he predestined, he called. Those whom he called, he justified. Those whom he justified, he glorified. This is the process in which a person becomes a Christian. It was determined before they were ever born. Not everyone is called to faith. If they were, they would be justified and saved. If salvation is determined prior to birth then damnation would be equally determined prior to birth and in doing so, rendering God creating a damned creature. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky6617 Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 35 minutes ago, MSUBulldog2010 said: If salvation is determined prior to birth then damnation would be equally determined prior to birth and in doing so, rendering God creating a damned creature. Interesting. Correct. Some receive justice, others receive mercy. In either case, God is glorified. He is glorified when he punishes a sinner in their rebellion against him, and he is glorified in his mercy and forgiveness he gives to others. 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (Romans 9:14, ESV) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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